| Author |
Comment | Acelera
Guru
Posts: 2791
Loc: London, UK
(09/01/05 11:56 AM)
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MLAN State of the Union revisited
I started a topic on this forum a few months back with a list of things I reckoned should be addressed by Yamaha and the MLAN committee. I'm editing that post to reflect the current situation.
Here's the big list.
1) Invisible latency / recording offset issues. The 01x is reporting invisible latency that the drivers don't pass on to the DAW. The quantity of invisible latency isn't consistent which makes matters worse. Also, the recording offset isn't consistent either between different sessions and/or recordings. These problems have been reproduced by a large number of people on this forum - not only on Cubase SX either - and Steinberg has publicly placed the responsability on Yamaha's shoulders. A quick yet proper fix is required.
2) Crossplatform compability. There's issues - admittedly rare - switching the 01x from Mac to PC and vice versa. These issues seem to revolve around the MLAN Firmware updates available for either platform.
3) Firmware updates. A firmware update normally addresses issues with the hardware in question and/or adds functionality to the device. We are not told what the MLAN Firmware updates do or not do - how can you then know if there'll be a side effect with your existing system?
4) CPU usage. Across both Mac & PC, the AutoConnector is quite hungry on resources. More so, when we take advantage to mix our DAW tracks 'out of the box' - eg on the 01x. Using all the channels we have available is too CPU intensive right now.
5) Firewire. Still plenty issues with firewire chipsets, 3rd party devices and the like on both Mac & PC. The PC drivers are very picky about Firewire controllers (perhaps because of the ISOC packets) and even bog standard G5's aren't immune to this either.
6) Wordclock. It works while it works but it's nonetheless daunting for the MLAN novice when it does go wrong and won't come back... MLAN needs 'set up and forget' wordclock - this is what the systems it's measured against have.
7) The hardware reset tool. Still has to be asked for even though it seems increasingly obvious that G5 systems seem to be the main victims when it comes to 'stuck' 01x units. Geosync is always very helpful but he shouldn't need to be troubled for this.
8) I/O count. MLAN only scales to 32 i/o when a computer is used in the equation. This is because it uses the Isochronous Packet Transfer mode and the number of i/o is as many channels as there are ISOC channels on the current PC/MAC firewire spec. Why is this protocol used? Is this why the 01x does 28 channels max?
9) Ancillary software.
The Graphical Patchbay . The PC platform has a graphical patchbay, the Mac platform has a limited version of the PC implementation. This tool is susceptible of receiving significant updates from the GUI and functionality perspective. Why not steal a leaf out of Creamware, MOTU or RME's routing book?
Studio Manager. Both platforms have it. Nice idea but it interferes with your DAW of choice too easily and thus crashes out. Like the GP, it could do with more work on the GUI and workflow areas.
10) Expansion. Yamaha digital mixers and synths apart, we have the Presonus Firestation (S200 device) and the Yamaha i88x as sole ways to expand the 01x. I'm certain this isn't the universal network MLAN and its adopters (eg. US - the users) are hoping for. Terratec/CME have since come aboard but we yet have to see a working unit.
11) Computer networking. We know this feature is in beta or was in beta a year ago anyway. This is one of the angular points which could put MLAN on the spotlight as THE superior audio/midi/studio protocol. Holding it back and/or shelving it altogether is not sensible.
I think that this list is a fair summary of what MLAN is right now and where it can go to.
We are still missing direct rapport from YCJ and while I appreciate the efforts that Yamaha_US makes on our behalf, progress seems to be stalling right now.
As I said back then:
"The paradigm shift has to come from the heart of Yamaha Japan. MLAN is a great idea but it's hard for it to take off if its parents don't take it seriously.
Over to you, Yamaha."
http://www.myspace.com/aceleramusic
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  | ElmerJFudd
Guru
Posts: 3653
Loc: USA
(09/01/05 12:51 PM)
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Re: MLAN State of the Union revisited
All valid points, Acelera.
Obviously #1 ("invisible latency") is the one that has people most fired up on the forum again. It's been quiet on the forum for about 4 months. Admittedly, it's been nice to see some products roll out of Yamaha that have the mLAN I/O option. Version 1.05 of the Mac tools and 1.5.4 of the windows tools are improvements over their predecessors. But in my humble opinion (and I really don't think I am being overly demanding), mLAN specific updates are too few and too far between.
I suspect the mLAN coders at Yamaha are over their heads. Please, hire a few more guys, pay them what their talents are worth, and expect results. The hardware is useless without the drivers. I have made this accusation before and Yamaha_US has suggested that they are able to do their jobs. But his people are working on releases for the entire line. It HAS to be overwhelming. Two years since hitting the street and the Mac drivers are version 1.05. :-(
If what we are really after here is the resources (both intellectual and financial) to push mLAN into the minds and hearts of the music industry, what really has to happen here? Yamaha, can't you go open source? Let the master coders out there see what you're working on.
Things in general really need to be kicked up a notch, and only Yamaha can do this. I think I speak for most of us when I say we are willing to play with betas to get you the answers you need regarding everyday use. Yamaha what can we do to help you? You already know what needs to be done to help us.
White MacBook '09 (4gb RAM), OSX.5.8, v.1.2 mLAN tools, Logic 9, 01X, S90ES, i88x & i88x
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| arlen
Guru
Posts: 970
(09/01/05 02:13 PM)
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Re: MLAN State of the Union revisited
I agree with all of the above and need to add that the "mac native" more useful and easier to use Graphic Patchbay should be produced by now.
There are workarounds, of course, with the existing patchbay, but why should we have to use workarounds.
We need the same functionality or better than our PC counterparts.
Yamaha...This time PLEASE take this seriously and give us some timely answers. This forum community can sour very quickly when you keep us in the dark.
BTW, when was the last progress report?
Arlen
Reminder our credo---from the brochure.
"01X means you just literally plug in and play. "
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| ElmerJFudd
Guru
Posts: 3653
Loc: USA
(09/01/05 02:50 PM)
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Re: MLAN State of the Union revisited
I agree that we need parity between the two platforms, arlen. But let's me reasonable... could you tolerate the "windowsesque" GUI if everything underneath worked the way it should? The icing on the cake can come later.
In July we had the long overdue 1.05 mLAN tools (with a graphic patchbay) after much whining and complaining on the forum, Other than that, it's been adjustments in the software to accommodate new products. But the crux of the matter is still there. The drivers themselves need improvement.
White MacBook '09 (4gb RAM), OSX.5.8, v.1.2 mLAN tools, Logic 9, 01X, S90ES, i88x & i88x
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| ohmstudiste
Regular
Posts: 10
(09/02/05 08:52 AM)
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Re: MLAN State of the Union revisited
I agree with the wishlist but honnestly I think Yamaha is going away from MLAN.
It proved to be a commercial flop(no other gear exept Yamaha's), buggy and too CPU hungry.
Here in France, O1X and i88X are not listed in shops anymore.
When a product is not listed in shops anymore, that means production is over, no ?
There no new MLAN product and as you pointed protocol is dated.
Either they rebuilt it totally or they drop it. IF they do rebuilt it, it would be very risky for them and it would probably not be backwards compatible, thus making the 01X obsolete.
For how long is it written on 01X main page "(month) (year) This is the year when mLAN FireWire Music Networking breaks loose!" ? At least since I bought it a year and a half ago.
I guess in a few months we can get good second hand deals on i88x, and it would make a nice couple O1x/i88x but with no future.
If at least they could adress the offset problem...
Don't get me wrong, I love the device, it's just that it has no future anymore.
Edited by ohmstudiste (09/02/05 08:56 AM)
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| SteveBoker
Guru
Posts: 548
Loc: Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
(09/02/05 12:05 PM)
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Re: MLAN State of the Union revisited
I'd be surprised if mLAN were dropped. Two new Yamaha products with mLAN support were announced this summer.
I would not be surprised if mLAN were upgraded in some incompatible way. After all, Yamaha has a history of that.
I don't expect there to be any information from Yamaha until a product or upgrade is ready. They are very much operating on the Apple model --- As much as possible, don't tell the customer anything until you drop it in their hands. There is a logic to that, although it's not very pleasant for us the users.
I was vocal the last time Acelera brought this up. This will be the entire extent of my contribution this time. I am firmly convinced that customer opinion has nothing to do with what will happen or when it will happen. For now, I'm going to enjoy what is really an incredible system right now. Maybe some time it will be better. Maybe not. It's working for me right now.
One school of thought is that the company should engauge the customers in order to improve the product. That ain't happenin' here and complaining won't change the situation. Let's get back to helping each other and makin' music.
Critics talk about art. Artists talk about brushes.
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| Sean
Enthusiast
Posts: 462
Loc: NW, UK
(09/02/05 12:30 PM)
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Re: MLAN State of the Union revisited
Steve
Do you have to calibrate your system everytime before 'making music' and after any time mlan drops out?
I'm not trying to be sardonic, I just wonder if you are happy because:
(a) You have no problems
(b) You have problems but you are happy to live with them
(c) You have realised that we on the 01x forum are not going to change, influence or even speed up anything so we may as well shut up and ignore it.
01x, i88x, PC DAW with 2 powercores, CubaseSX3, Kore+Komplete, Alesis Fusion 8HD, Variax, V-drums.
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| Longshot
Experienced
Posts: 87
Loc: Wisconsin
(09/02/05 01:30 PM)
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Re: MLAN State of the Union revisited
This is all very interesting. I hear all of these arguments and all of which very valid points. Then on the other hand my Yamaha rep tells me that something really big is brewing for this fall that is going to be huge in the wolrd of mLan.
If you are listening Yamaha, you really need to at least be more forthcoming with information. In my position, as I am in sales engineer at a major distributor, I hear both sides and I'm getting REALLY fed up.
I LOVE this unit and I LOVE mLan. It has been a great technology for me. But I want at the very least, the good vibes and warm fuzzies I get from the people who make the prodcuts I sell (yamaha) related to the people I sell them too (the fine folks on this forum would be a start)
Ventingly yours
Longshot
*************
Got Dreams? - Get Reality! Random Reality - MultiMedia
www.random-reality.net
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| Sean
Enthusiast
Posts: 462
Loc: NW, UK
(09/02/05 01:37 PM)
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Re: MLAN State of the Union revisited
''my Yamaha rep tells me that something really big is brewing for this fall that is going to be huge in the wolrd of mLan.''
Item 1 would be a start on this letter- If Yamaha get all the way down to item 11 I'll have 01x tatooed on my arse ;-)
Seriusly- if all this silence is because of a big pending anouncement, its a bad move- one 'sorry, it's in hand- give us a couple of weeks...' would have overted all this negativity.
Perhaps every single employee at Yam is beta testing the V2 drivers with that can network multiple PC's with sample accurate sync and low cpu drain....
01x, i88x, PC DAW with 2 powercores, CubaseSX3, Kore+Komplete, Alesis Fusion 8HD, Variax, V-drums.
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| arlen
Guru
Posts: 970
(09/02/05 02:22 PM)
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Re: MLAN State of the Union revisited
Longshot...No offense, but you've been saying the Yamaha reps have been telling you something big is gonna happen since you came to this forum months ago. You must be getting tired of the pitch without the delivery.
Elmer,
i want it all to work; under the hood and platform parity. All this stuff just tends to get us upset anyway and nothing ever happens until Yamaha is damned good and ready for it to happen.
Mlan can be a great system. Since out of practicality, I use mostly two channel and the 01X only as opposed to using my mlan16e with the motif as well, it works fairly well.
But the delivery so far is far behind the promises made. I don't have time nor the inclination to get much more upset over this again.
My patience is gone.
Arlen
Reminder our credo---from the brochure.
"01X means you just literally plug in and play. "
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